Q & A with Author Anika Orrock
In hew new book, Anika Orrock vividly brings to life the world of women who played in the All American Girls Professional Baseball League.
"The Incredible Women of the All-American Girls Professional League," released today and available on Amazon, is a loving tribute, an intimate retelling and an unblinking study of the lives and experiences of women who played baseball professionally.
The illustrations, also by Orrock, don't just serve as accompanying artwork; they're as much a part of the story, adding more emotional depth to the stories the players tell in their own words about everything from their childhoods, to the way they were expected to dress, and how playing professionally impacted the rest of their lives.
Orrock spoke with HOTF this weekend. You can find additional quotes from this interview on the All Heels on Deck subsriber page on Patreon.
HOTF: Women's baseball was revolutionary but it was a time of revolution in women's lives. Our right to
vote was only 25 years old when the league formed. How did the movement politically & socially impact the league's formation, if at all?
AO: The period between suffrage and a landmark like Title IX is so short in the grand scheme of things,
but the scale of the shifts that took place for women in those 52 years is just so immense. Our right to vote wasn’t even quite 25 years old when the league formed in 1943 - it took nearly TWICE that long for the 19th amendment to pass after it was first introduced to congress. Knowing what we know now about roles and perceptions of women by the mid century, it’s pretty incredible to think of how quickly momentum was already moving - at least comparatively - for women by the time WW2 arrived.
I think the league was born out of this sweeping necessity for women to step into roles they had never
previously occupied, and that necessity gave way to an unprecedented level of acceptance - even if “temporarily”, much more so than during the First World War. Women were taking on heavy duty, high-skill jobs and being admitted into all-male trade unions; they were building ships and airplanes and driving fire trucks!
It was this very unique time where all bets were off, in a way.
HOTF: Baseball was part of so many of the players lives very early, just as it was for boys. But professional
women's baseball gets erased. Even with the "A League of Their Own" movie. Why does that acknowledgement seem so hard to get? Why is there such resistance?
AO: That is a very good question. It really doesn’t make sense that it would still be that way, nearly
seventy years after the AAGPBL folded. Unfortunately, it kind of seems to come down to a traceable moment when something occurred that set up the foundation for a system, and institutions and systems are difficult to break.
Two years after the passage of Title IX, a lawsuit was filed on behalf of a young girl who was kicked
off of her Little League team for simply being a girl. The Little League organization fought hard
to keep girls out, coming up with hilariously bad “scientific findings” about girls’ bodies and the terrible impact any cosmetic damage from playing could have on the rest of their lives. But in the end, Little League was ordered to permit girls, so to avoid thousands of further impending lawsuits, they came up with a clever little scheme: divert and develop girls’ softball. That set the foundation from which every channel of opportunity and development for girls, from preschool through college, was built. And it’s not a bad thing! Softball has grown into a highly competitive sport and produced some legendary athletes! It’s just not the same sport as baseball, and I think that’s the acknowledgement that is so difficult to get.
Most people do not know how completely different softball is from baseball, so to this day, they just think of softball as “girls’ baseball”. Like it’s “good enough”, women have their ball-and-stick sport, so why develop the same thing all over again? But it’s NOT the same thing, and women’s baseball has suffered arrested development because of that mentality. It’s a strange phenomenon where each of those sports has been sort of assigned a gender. There is men’s basketball and women’s basketball; men’s hockey and
women’s hockey. But they’re playing the same sport.
Gender assignment in general is currently experiencing a revolution. I’m very intrigued and excited
to see what new shifts are taking place and are yet to come.
HOTF: Dolly Niemiec is quoted as saying, "I thought I was the only one," who played baseball as a young
girl. It actually reminded me of a line Doris says in ALOTO, about feeling different and weird until she joined the team. The emotional connection was so profound. Do you have a favorite quote or story from any of the women about that bond?
AO: I love that quote from Dolly! I think my favorite follow up to that would be when she went on to tell
me about how stunned she was when she walked in to spring training and saw “all these other girls my age throwing the ball like I did, swinging, running, sliding––and I thought, “Where did all these gals come from?!”
Most of the women I spoke with had that reaction when they arrived to their first spring training.They all grew up being the only girl in their family, on their block, in their neighborhood, in their town who played baseball! I can only imagine what that must have felt like to realize there were so many others like you!
And not just others who played incredible baseball.
It was also the first time any of them had traveled away from home, first time they’d played in front of a decent-to-large-sized crowd, first time they’d gotten any sort of “celebrity” attention or had their name printed in the newspaper. For those who played in 1947, it was the first time near any of them had been on an airplane or to a different country (Cuba). And collectively, they received the same amount of skepticism and criticism, coiffing and charm schooling. Everything was new to them — even each other! They were pioneering unchartered territory together, and at the center of it all, they shared this lifelong love of baseball, and together they were fulfilling a lifelong dream of being paid to play it. I imagine that created
some amazing friendships, emotional connections, and bonds between them.
HOTF: Why did they use "softball rules?" Did that make the day to day easier for less experienced players?
Or was there another reason? Well, Wrigley initially conceived of a softball league after having been to a few women’s softball games. That was all there was! There weren’t any women’s baseball games to see! I think perhaps he suffered from the same unintentional ignorance that exists today. Women were playing softball in organized leagues by that point. They weren’t exactly creating “pictures of femininity”, but it was something Wrigley could work with. Baseball was just thought of as too rough, too hard, too competitive - there was chewing and spitting and sliding. So I think the softball rules were initially just a natural symptom of that.
What Wrigley was not quite expecting was the players’ level of athleticism and competition once the best of the best were on a field together. Suddenly the base path distances weren’t long enough; the distance from the mound to the plate was too short; the ball was too big.Several of the women had played softball before joining the league, but many of them had not, a great many of them had only played baseball, had only thrown overhand, etc. So it certainly wouldn’t have been easier for most of the players, maybe just easier for Wrigley and his management. In fact, it would have probably been more difficult for most of the players, which is why I think the game shifted so quickly to baseball.
5. The ball changed over time too, and eventually they were throwing overhand. Were there more injuries?
Which players seemed to adapt quite easily?
Jean Faut, arguably the greatest pitcher in the league, grew up pitching overhand and had spent a great deal of time under the tutelage of her local men’s baseball team, so she had already learned and worked on several baseball pitches. “When they really went to complete overhand pitching,” she said, “I was home free. I knew all the pitches and they had a lot of trouble hitting off me.” Those who had played softball previously were such great athletes, they were either able to adapt to overhand throwing in short time or easily adapt to another field position.
The same can be said for the size of the ball. Most women I spoke with felt like they could finally really play every time the ball got smaller, if for no other reason than they could fit their hands around it. Catherine Horstman told me that when “we played with a regular baseball—oh my god, how easy! I mean...I could grip that ball, wow — and hit it!”
HOTF: Advertising their femininity was very important. Were the women comfortable with that? Was there
any fun engaging in the celebrity aspect once they started gaining attention?
AO: I don’t know how many of them were comfortable with the uniform in terms of practicality when playing.
Having to jump and field grounders with a skirt flying in your face didn’t sound all that fun — not to mention the sliding. I’m unsure to what degree some of them were comfortable or uncomfortable having to act and appear feminine, I’m sure it was different or everyone, just as it is now. The difference, however, is that now, if we don’t consider ourselves to be extremely feminine, or if dressing femininely or wearing makeup is uncomfortable, we just don’t do it, and that’s okay. Few jobs depend on - or can get away with imposing - femininity these days. That wasn’t even the case 25 years ago! My mom was a flight attendant when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s and I remember her heels having to be a certain height; she was regularly weighed on a scale, her lipstick had to be freshly applied before greeting passengers - that seems crazy now!
If it was uncomfortable for any of the women in the league, they weren’t really at freedom to complain
about it. Feminine presentation was written right in the rules, and if you didn’t follow the rules, you went home. As nutty as it sounds, a lot of them were happy to curl their hair and wear a dress if it meant getting paid to play baseball. I’m not really sure if any of them had fun engaging in the celebrity aspect, per se. Several of the women talked about how enjoyable it was to greet fans and talk to kids. Some of them had really funny stories about some cuckoo fans, but most fans really treated the women with a lot of respect and were really generous with them, and vice versa. But I don’t get the impression there were many real-life All the Way Mae’s in the league.
HOTF: What did the ALOTO movie do for the history of the league? How much did Penny Marshall's story get
right about the experience?
AO: That movie changed everything. There were families who didn’t even know their own mother, grandmother, aunt, etc. had played professional baseball until that movie came out! The women who had played didn’t really talk about it, and American history being written the way it has since birth, NO one really talked about it. I think part of it is because many of the women didn’t yet realize there was significance to what they had been a part of. They just knew they fulfilled a patriotic duty and got paid to play baseball for as long as the dream lasted. But for most, they just got tired of fending off stereotypes and having to laboriously convince people that they had once played professional baseball.
One player in the book, Lavonne Paire, talked about a conversation that still happens to women baseball
players to this day, where “you can look ‘em right in the eye and say ‘baseball,’ and they’ll look you right back and say ‘softball’.” So they just stopped talking about it!
What Penny Marshall did was let the world know that this amazing thing had happened. They went from never talking about it to suddenly being asked to talk about it all the time.I find that so incredibly wonderful.
For that reason, whatever aspects of the league’s history that were given the Hollywood “sheen”, (for
example: the drunken, stumbling coach or the prude and skittish chaperone) I think those things could be forgiven. Not just because of the overall impact of the film, but also because the women who actually lived those experiences were now out in the world,sharing their stories and giving insight into how things really happened.
HOTF: Finally, what do you hope to teach not just young girls, but women, about the true history & women's
place in baseball?
AO: I hope these stories will help women understand the significance of what happened as well as the spirit
of it. It’s very easy to rely on our filters of the present in judging these stories and experiences. It’s easy to shake our heads and scoff at what a travesty it was that these women’s lives were dictated or ruled by men and that they were forced to play baseball in skirts. Also, it should be known that these women were treated like professional ball players by their coaches.
One woman expressed offense that I would bring these stories to light the way I have, and with illustrations. I would argue that point of view limits the legacy of these women and potentially dulls the impact it can have on lessons of perseverance and grit. This happened at a very unlikely time and it hasn’t happened since. Whether it’s right or not, without the skirts, the lipstick, the rules of decorum and the chaperones at that time, it just wouldn’t have happened at all. And then where would we be? The real legacy is not that these women had to wear skirts while playing baseball, it’s that they played seven games per week of incredible professional baseball despite wearing skirts. And they experienced what many of them have described as the best years of their lives - it’s why they still gather for an annual reunion! They wouldn’t be getting together every year to relive their most oppressive times with one another. And they were paid significant salaries to play, which gave them access to higher education and other opportunities most women didn’t have access to at the time. They went on to teach younger generations and set powerful examples. So there’s a rather incredible ripple effect there that has grown in beautiful and important ways in spite of a patriarchy.
I hope these stories of grit, determination, and individuality teach young girls to stick to their guns, to be true to themselves and stay the course of their dreams. Even if they don’t see a clear cut path - or any path at all. There was no path for these women to play pro baseball, but many of them played anyway because they loved it and they were good at it. When the opportunity suddenly appeared, they were ready. because it seems like a professional women’s baseball league should have developed again by now, it’s easy to wonder if it ever will. There’s also a whole generation of young girls who aren’t aware that it’s already happened! I get a thrill just thinking of a young girl picking up this book and learning about this league for the first time. There is tremendous empowerment in knowing what we thought to be impossible has actually happened, and is therefore no longer impossible. If we know something is possible,who or what is to stop us?
Twitter:
Anika Orrock @Anikadrawls
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League @AAGPBL
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